Posts by Nicholaus Kopernicus

56

Is it true? Heard a rumor WT postphones Disfellowshipping until further notice!!??

by Olivia Wilde in

i am not sure if it's true but i heard from a good source that wt has given instructions to elders to postponed disfellowshipping members from wrong doing/gross sin until further instructions given by headquarters.

i heard some jws were just reproved either privately or publically.

has anyone else heard anything like this recently?

Nicholaus Kopernicus

It would certainly be a relief if the policy of disfellowshipping were to be quietly dropped. However, in that the evidence is that the WTBTS is a cult, the removal of the disfellowshipping sanction would be a significant loss of control for the cult. Then again, there is the problem of many individuals having internalised disfellowshipping in their own minds such that even although there is no announcement about an individual's having been expelled, congregation members nevertheless stop talking to you and avoid you - rather like pre-emptive disfellowshipping. That can he hurtful too.

In my case, I am de facto shunned just because I twice answered up at WT study (carefully using quoted references from published WT literature) pointing out that elders can only expect the obedience which they frequently demand, if their decisions are based on scripture. Otherwise, how can you give a rebuttal to the accusation that you are a "man pleaser" or "follower of men" I reasoned. I also explained that they are confusing "peitheo" (listen, persuaded, but translated as obey in Heb 13:17) with "peitharcheo" (obedience to authority).

So even if the policy of disfellowshipping were to be halted or relaxed, their way of marginalising some individuals at a congregation level continues to be problematic. But there are consequences nevertheless, for since I answered up I have discovered that there are 12 other dissidents in my congregation - they do communicate with me. Of course, the WTBTS gets not one little penny from me in contributions - absolutely nothing. My fellow dissidents also give nothing! This all started with the local BoE's blowing a wind and kicking the sheep.

1

THE ORGANISATION BOOK - 2015 EDITION

by Nicholaus Kopernicus in

page 8 - para 10the book states that "jesus christ occupies an elevated position in the heavens, and much authority has been given to him.

" the paragraph goes on to reference ephesians 1:22 (jesus is "head over all things with regard to the congregation") and philippians 2:9-11 ("god exalted him to a superior position...).

the authors of this revised text avoid mention of jesus' revelation in matthew 28:18 namely, that "all authority has been given me in heaven and on earth".

Nicholaus Kopernicus

Page 8 - para 10

The book states that "Jesus Christ occupies an elevated position in the heavens, and much authority has been given to him." The paragraph goes on to reference Ephesians 1:22 (Jesus is "head over all things with regard to the congregation") and Philippians 2:9-11 ("God exalted him to a superior position...). The authors of this revised text avoid mention of Jesus' revelation in Matthew 28:18 namely, that "All authority has been given me in heaven and on earth". That this is diluted to "much authority" in the text is truly eggregious. The Bible explains that we honour God by honouring his Son... "For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him." John 5:22,23Thus, how does it honour Jesus to assert that he has been given "much authority" rather than "All authority... in heaven and on earth"?

Page 13 - para 5

The 2005 edition of the Organized book did not allude to elders' decisions being the result of Jesus having given direction to them. Rather, it stated on page 36 - "Spiritually qualified men would give evidence in their life that they are directed by holy spirit. They would be producing the fruitage of the spirit....". This is quite different in that the text is saying that Christians are doing their best to ensure that their life, decisions, treatment of others etc, is convergent with the teachings of Christ. Well that's how I see it anyway.

I can't bear reading any more of it for the time being - thoroughly inaccurate material so far and I've only read up to chapter 3 and critiqued it rather sparingly. Yet, before I finished reading for the day, I couldn't help but look up "lie" in the Insight volume and discovered this very pertinent information..."Jehovah God allows 'an operation of error' to go to persons who prefer falsehood 'that they may get to believing the lie' rather than the good news about Jesus Christ. (2Th 2:9-12)." Of course, the citation of 2 Th 2:9-12 in the Insight volume is a reference to the man of lawlessness. How ironic! Yes indeed, it seems like the Governing Body and their affiliates really are "believing the lie"! Perhaps Almighty God is allowing that "operation of error" to go to the GB and its writing committee!

49

Are Circuit Overseers next?

by Londo111 in

last year saw the elimination of the district overseer...and circuit overseers now must retire at 70. how long until the circuit overseer is no more?

of course, the role might still exist, they would simply not get paid.

they would have to care for their own expenses.

Nicholaus Kopernicus

Many Filipinos have ignored WT counsel not to migrate. In consequence, the Manila Bethel has sent a dutchman and his wife to take on the role of Circuit Overseer for Filipinos in Europe. He is based at the Bethel in Rome. Initially, he visited Filipinos in England by using Easyjet. He was met at airport and cheuffered around by brothers. Now however, he has to drive himself from Rome in a vehicle several years old! Maybe the cash crisis has resulted in this change. If so, then the suspicion of some on this thread of CO's being next for fiscal retraction may be a reality before long. Many BoE's would be pleased to have less visits and be left to their own devices more than at present. One authority figure interfacing with other authority figures achieves nothing positive.

49

Are Circuit Overseers next?

by Londo111 in

last year saw the elimination of the district overseer...and circuit overseers now must retire at 70. how long until the circuit overseer is no more?

of course, the role might still exist, they would simply not get paid.

they would have to care for their own expenses.

Nicholaus Kopernicus

M

21

Would Jesus have been disfellowshipped by the "Elders" of his day . . . . . .

by Dunedain in

i bet jesus would have been df'd by the "elders" in his day.

lets think about it, jesus hung out with "worldly" people.

his closest friends were known prostitutes, money collectors, men of "prominence" in the world of that day, non "beleivers" of the "faith" like samaritans, and many others that todays "elders" would have deemed "unworthy".. jesus spoke against the "organization" and "elders" of his day.

Nicholaus Kopernicus

I concur with Dunedain. Additionally, Jesus wore a beard and would be disdained by the Watchtower leadership for such. He was in many respects a victim of the self-serving leadership in 1st century. So too would he be a victim of of today's appaling leadership. Similarly, John the Baptist would be treated dreadfully and not least because of his being scantilly attired. His appaling treatment by today's Watchtower leadership would be inspite of James' counsel to be accepting and respectful to those wearing "vile raiment".

Some young JW's reject the arrogance of the GB and pursue higher education. They and their parents are marginalised within the organisation as a result. Yet the GB, by deprecating such individuals, ignore the Divine counsel to "lead a quiet life and mind your own business" (1 Th 4:11) and not "be a busybody in other peoples' affairs" (1 Pet 4:15). Their arrogance (would make Nebuchadnezzar look humble) is such that these scriptures are not seen as applying to them. Thus they proscribe some things and prescribe others for the flock. So presumptious!

I understand that the WTBTS monitors this and other "apostate" sites. Be it known to them that I know they defy Jesus' counsel wherein he says, "Let those who have ears to listen, listen well." They ignore many scriptures, mis-apply others, and distort many more in an essentially eisegetal NWT and appalingly written magazines and texts. Be it known to them that I, my family, and my friends are taking the only action we can - refraining from making financial contributions.

We discretely talk to others about the newspaper reports of child abuse and sucessful victim lawsuits. We also explain to others, the WTBTS's tendency to contest most cases and its excessive use of denial. So it is increasingly easy to get individuals to abstain from making contributions.

However, there is one important factor which makes it easier for my Bros and Sis to go on contributions strike. This is the demeanour and communication style of the GB on JW Broadcasting. So thank you GB for lending a hand, albeit unwittingly on your part!

4

LEADERSHIP OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES AND "PRIMUM NON NOCERE"

by Nicholaus Kopernicus in

primum non nocere is a latin phrase that means "first, do no harm.

" the phrase is sometimes recorded as primum nil nocere.some businesses have adopted this aphorism into their day to day psyche, one such example being the airline industry.

this is so deeply ingrained that here in the uk, many observers opine that the uk's national health service ought to adopt the same psyche as the airline industry and incorporate the "first, do no harm" into day to day practice as a priority.but what about non-medical and non-airline organisations?

Nicholaus Kopernicus

Primum non nocere is a Latin phrase that means "first, do no harm." The phrase is sometimes recorded as primum nil nocere.Some businesses have adopted this aphorism into their day to day psyche, one such example being the airline industry. This is so deeply ingrained that here in the UK, many observers opine that the UK's National Health Service ought to adopt the same psyche as the airline industry and incorporate the "first, do no harm" into day to day practice as a priority.

But what about non-medical and non-airline organisations? Is there scope for the adoption of this way of thinking too? I have in mind the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society aka the International Bible Students Association aka the Jehovah's Witnesses. In that this organisation purports to be exemplary of "True Christianity" then they may well not need to adopt such a way of thinking. Surely "True Christianity" could only be discerned as beneficient to individuals rather than maleficient?

1. Do people loose their lives as a result of yielding to the direction of the GB of Jehovah's Witnesses regarding the prohibition of blood transfusions?
But then again, the GB would articulate that such is a free individual choice. Therefore, it is not the WTBTS / GB etc who inflict harm they would argue. However, if an individual did accept a blood transfusion (s)he would be disfellowshipped or regarded as having disassociated themselves from the "congregation". Thus, the choice is not a free one as the GB articulates. So there is harm if you decline medical advice to have a transfusion (life may be in jeopardy), and harm if you accept the medical advice (risk of isolation following discovery of the event by your local BoE). This is perhaps the greatest wrong perpetrated by a leadership which purports to be "faithful" to God's Word yet shows a lengthy history of nihilism, doctrinal capriciousness, and narcissism - hardly fruitage which Jesus would extol.

2. Do people suffer unnecessary economic hardship as a result of becoming a Jehovah's Witness?
Well in the UK, many of the brothers and sisters I know have opted not to subscribe to a pension plan. Thus, when they enter the the years of "silver hair", it may be the case that others will "rise up" in respect of such seniors, but their income troughs rather than rises. The income of a significant number is at a level which engenders stress and which could have been avoided had they subscribed to a pension plan. Many individuals in the "silver hair" bracket have to continue working as a consequence. Their quality of life is not what it might have been otherwise. Many were not expecting "this system of things" to be continuing into 2015. However the GB continues to publish information which would have many believe that the kingdom is imminent. They trusted the GB, the FDS, and now meet with bitter disappointment.

Even for many younger ones for whom "silver hair" is still far off, they have to contend with employment which is not so financially rewarding due to the GB's stern deprecation of higher education. Many yield to this despite their being no Biblical authority for the position. Consider Daniel and his three friends who were taken captive into Babylon. They had a course of education lasting about three years (equivalent of a BA deg). They were educated in the law, customs, culture, and language of the Chaldeans. According to Professor John C. Lennox in his book - "Against The Flow - The Inspiration of Daniel In An Age of Relativism" - he describes the institution of learning in Daniel's time as the "University of Babylon". Indeed, Daniel 1:17 states - "To these young men God gave knowledge and understanding of all kinds of literature and learning." (NIV) So almighty God does not seem to view higher education in the way that their eminences of the GB do!

I have not touched on the subject of child abuse/molestation here as there is much documented already about this ghastly state of affairs. Suffice it to say that the stand of the GB in protecting it's own interests above that of the interests of innocent children is truly unchristian. Their refusal to refer such cases to the clinical and forensic expertise which is so merited is a most eggregious outrage. They demonstate that they are being guided by corporate legal advocates rather than the Word of God which they falsely claim.

Similarly, the GB disdains any BoE who would recommend seeking professional help by an individual suffering from depression or other type of psychiatric ailment. This betrays an uncaring and uneducated outlook on their part. In many many ways, the GB and the organisation of Jehovah's Witnesses are remote in their thinking from the thought of "primum non nocere" and if anything, demonstrate to the contrary.

It is to be hoped that the present state of financial affairs which the GB finds itself in, is due to many electing to desist from contributing as they previously did, rather than the financial difficulties being solely due to increasing costs / over expansion. Who in all conscience could financially support an organisation exemplifying Peter Principle on the one hand, and which is inimical to the health, safety and welfare of so many?

19

Elder's Meeting about ARC? No. Really?

by punkofnice in

as you may or may not know (or care), i live in the uk.

a jw spy of mine told me that an elder had metioned that attendance at the kingdom hells had seemed to have dropped off after the australian royal comission expose of paedophilia within the watchtower organisation.. the elders were said to have had this as an item or the subject of a local elder's meeting.. i was surprised they'd even heard of the arc over here but at the same time was delighted.

delighted that meeting attendance had dropped possibly....and i say possibly...as a result of the arc.. even an older dyed in the wool jw i know is getting sick of the gb worship within the organisation and had heard of the arc.. has anyone heard similar?.

Nicholaus Kopernicus

The Rebel is very perceptive with those points A and B. The Gov Body's broadcasts are a means of causing many to reflect and embark on a road of mentally questioning the organisation and its teachings. From the WTBTS / JW perspective, it would be less damaging if the Gov Body would simply shut up......
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

406

ex-jw-uk

by bigmac in

jw
friends

i'm quite new to this site, & have realised some members have a union jack symbol under their avatar.

i don't.. could we have a "show of hands" from any uk members?

i've already found several by reading older posts..

Nicholaus Kopernicus

Located on the periphery of London - SE.

10

SOLA SCRIPTURA VS THE MAGISTERIUM

by Nicholaus Kopernicus in

the reinvention of the magisterium.

in catholicism, the magisterium is the authority that lays down what is the authentic teaching of the church.

for the catholic church, that authority is vested uniquely in...... a) the pope and.

Nicholaus Kopernicus

Hello again Half Banana:

It is true that I do not embark upon Bible reading with a view to "finding fault". Rather, I read and engage in reflection / in meditation. To an extent, I borrow from the method(s) outlined in "Lectio Devina".

I have nothing against critical thinking either - but my focus for such tends to be on the WTBTS and to a lesser extent, other institutions / businesses. I recollect an interview given by Dr. Daniel Goleman several years ago (author of "Emotional Intelligence") who stated that there are basically three types of organisation....

a) Bottom line - goes to the very edge of legality (what it thinks it can get away with)

b) Stakeholder - looks to the interests of both its shareholders and customers

c) Ethical - governed by morality and ethics in conducting itself

Increasingly, my critical thinking tends towards me finding the WTBTS is a bottom line organisation. However, it is exceedingly good at putting on the most respectable of veneers.

Your method of examing the scriptures is not for me I'm afraid. As I said earllier, I enjoyed the Bible before I became a JW and continue to enjoy it now that I am (so I perceive anyway) on a slow path of egress from "the organisation".

What you say is interesting though and reminds me of the radio broadcasts every Saturday @ 1430 hrs BST on Premier Christian Radio called "Unbelievable". The progamme usually hosts a discussion between a Christian apologist and an athiest for example. Here are a few such programme themes.....

22nd August 15 - Is atheism a belief system? Andy Bannister vs Ed Turner

15th August 15 - The case from science for & against God – Peter Atkins vs Zachary Ardern

1st August 15 - Do the minimal facts support the resurrection? Gary Habermas & James Crossley

4th July 15 - John Lennox Premier Lecture - Going Against the Flow

Most of the broadcasts are still available as a podcast at the following webpage and might be of interest you.....

http://www.premierchristianradio.com/Shows/Saturday/Unbelievable/Episodes

I note your comment about Greek philosophy. This and other philosophies are quite interesting. I cannot but help thinking that the apostle Paul was influenced by the Greek philosophy in his time due to his statement at Romans 1:20 - "For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable." This strikes me as being rather like the reasoning of Aristotle and used later by Aquinas.

A modern individual who's work I enjoy reading is that of Isaiah Berlin, who wrote extensively about freedom (positive and negative freedom). Exposure to his work contributed significantly to me seeing the WTBTS for what it really is, but the catalyst for such an examination was ghastly conduct on the part of the local BoE. I have concluded that they behaved in the way they did as their minds are more continuously exposed to the environment of authority/power/control than are others. Thus they absorb that paradigm and project it to their detriment and that of others. That's my little bit of critical thinking for today!

This site we are sharing on is a fascinating one to read as there are a large number of individuals who are in one way or another "on a journey out of the Watchtower" as you put it. It is utterly incredulous, that the WTBTS urges so much effort into the recruitment of individuals on the one hand, only to devalue, bully, and otherwise control them such that those individuals at some time or other embark on an exit. So in many respects the WTBTS is rather self defeating.

10

SOLA SCRIPTURA VS THE MAGISTERIUM

by Nicholaus Kopernicus in

the reinvention of the magisterium.

in catholicism, the magisterium is the authority that lays down what is the authentic teaching of the church.

for the catholic church, that authority is vested uniquely in...... a) the pope and.

Nicholaus Kopernicus

Hello Half Banana:

Not at face value. I enjoy getting to the meaning of the scripture in its original language. One such example is the over used scripture among JW''s of Hebrews 13:17 - "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you..." This is used to control many JW's that's true. However, upon looking at the original language one can discern the following about "Be obedient" as used in the aforementioned scripture....

"Πείθεσθε" (Greek from Kingdom Interlinear)

VINES: "to persuade, to win over," in the Passive and Middle Voices, "to be persuaded, to listen to, to obey," is so used with this meaning, in the Middle Voice, e.g., in Acts 5:36-37 (in Acts 5:40, Passive Voice, "they agreed"); Rom. 2:8; Jas. 3:3; Gal. 5:7; Heb. 13:17; ...... " So the "obedience" suggested is not by submission to authority, but resulting from persuasion.

However, this is often ignored by those among JW's who hold positions of authority. During a Sunday meeting earlier this year, I referenced the latter material and other information due to the local BoE having made a rule affecting me, and without any authority. I was subsequently warned by the CoBE about my answers. I gave a rebuttal to his warning by stating that everything in my answer was from Scripture, the Insight volume, and a magazine (thus avoiding subjectivity on my part and for my protection). This was ignored by him and I have not been back to any meetings of that congregation since. I warned the BoE as a whole to desist from visiting me or in any way trying to establish contact with me citing three pieces of legislation. I have not heard from any of them. Thus, I cannot concur that I'm being controlled in my case. Rather, I refuse to be controlled by JW's. However, I do get comfort from the Scriptures. This I did before becoming a JW. However, I no longer describe myself as a JW having reasoned on JW history and NWT - Acts 11:26. If you are interested, see my reasoning at

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/189730001/christian-divine-providence

Best wishes in your pursuit of philosophy.